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04 June 2007 @ 02:24 pm
Anders discussion questions...  
Ok, so I'm obviously on a Sam-fic writing frenzy lately, and I've thought of a few questions for y'all.

Because this is spoilery...



1.
In the Quadrangle, Kara was treating Sam rather, er, badly. Now, we've discussed before why he let her: is he really a doormat (as some say)? Was he just giving damaged Kara time to figure out what she wanted because he really does love her and he understands she needs space and time? (and okay, yeah, I subscribe to the second obviously).

But, it occurred to me to wonder if he also still doesn't feel guilty about what happened to her on New Caprica. I've certainly written him during NC as feeling guilty that he can't find or rescue her. What if that guilt continued on later, as he watches her fall apart? He sleeps with her, so he's gotta know she still has nightmares at the very least, plus she did talk to him about Leoben at SOME point...

So is being her boy toy in some measure doing penance for his failure to keep her safe?

2.
Or, and this is my other thought (and the two aren't mutually exclusive), perhaps he was also feeling guilty about the deaths he'd caused as part of the Circle. In Collaborators, we can already see him getting sick of it, and eventually walk out. I guess this sort of depends on how hard-core a person sees Sam and probably one's own level of comfort with the plot-line, but did the human deaths (both on NC and later as part of the Circle) bother him later? Given that we know nothing of what he was up to on the other ship when he wasn't with Kara -- there's a lot of time there where second-thoughts might have started to prey on him. And a booty call to Galactica might have sounded like a good idea to forget his own demons, too.


3.

And okay, while we're on the subject of Collaborators: they return to Galactica after NC and they end up in Kara's rack. NOT in married quarters. All the other couples we know about get married quarters: Agathons, Adamas, and the Tyrols. Now, one thing is all of them are military, where Sam wasn't, so that might be one explanation. But if we assume it was someone's choice, was it Kara's? Did she refuse any offer Adama might have made for married quarters in her quest to "Starbuck" herself? Or was there some other reason?

In any case, if Starbuck refused the quarters, it helps me understand why Sam gave her back the tags -- he'd already had fair warning that she didn't consider herself married or at least together anymore.

Thoughts?

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entertaining in a disturbing way: Kara Anders gonna hurtlyssie on June 4th, 2007 11:28 pm (UTC)
Yes.
lizardbeth: Baallizardbeth_j on June 5th, 2007 04:16 am (UTC)
smartass
entertaining in a disturbing way: Kara Anders Get Drunk and Screwlyssie on June 5th, 2007 04:17 am (UTC)
*waggles tongue* Of course! *is reminded, and goes to finish frolicking in the snow ficlet*
entertaining in a disturbing way: Kara Anders gonna hurtlyssie on June 4th, 2007 11:37 pm (UTC)
*coughs* Ok.

In much more thinkie terms...

1. I do think there's guilt there--he couldn't be there for her on New Caprica, he couldn't rescue her until the end there. Which is something, I think, that plays into the whole Lee thing--he sees Lee as a rival, first, and I think he wants to keep him and Kara apart because it means he's there for her, even if he isn't. If that makes twisted sense.

As for penance, I'm sure he isn't consciously thinking that, but I bet that's part of his subconscious reason for not pushing until UB--and for not pushing even after, when they're back together after TaB.

I will never stop being pissed that we don't see the dog tag return scene.

2. The other thing that occurs to me: I wonder how much time Sam gave himself to dwell on the people he lost, back on good ol' Caprica. We know he lost people there, we also know that he pretty much threw himself into his work and tried not to think about it. Then he's rescued, and everything's great--and I bet he spent no time grieving, figuring he's with Kara and it's a clean slate. Then he gets tagged as a member of the New Caprica resistance, and he sends out suicide bombers. And suddenly, it's Caprica all over again, only this time, the rescue isn't much of a rescue.

3. I always assumed there were a finite number of married quarters. But then again, maybe Kara refused them--or, and this also seems to fit, they had to clear out married quarters--Chief and Cally didn't get theirs until sometime around Hero, iirc.

*snicker* As an aside, Lucy just said "We marry Kara and Sam off a lot in AUs." To which I pointed out "canon married them off, first." *wanders off, all smug*
lizardbeth: K-A Rapturelizardbeth_j on June 5th, 2007 04:42 am (UTC)
and oh no, I wasn't thinking the penance is conscious. If anything it would manifest as "Kara's had enough trouble, so I'll give her space. Whatever she needs, I'll give her. because I have no right to push her for anything."

But YES, bastards, not letting us see how the tag comes back. She brushes off Lee and then... she and Sam are in the bar and he has it (didn't we decide he had it then? or was it after that?) OMG I forget DAMN IT.

2. yeah, Caprica again, but worse. At least on Old Caprica he never (afaweknow) killed any humans. On NC they were humans. I tend to think while he could compartmentalize Sharon out as special, so killing Cylons wasn't hard, knowing he's killing humans had to eat at him. Not in the way it bothered Tyrol, who was more open about his doubts at the time, but more inside, where it just built and built, until he was the one that had to walk out of the Circle.

I don't want to overstate that either - in a way, maybe all that just contributed to his not being angry anymore, at least not in the way that Tyrol and Tigh and Charlie were.

3. No doubt there are only a few and immediately post-Exodus there was a lot of confusion and packed quarters, etc. Heck, they're still shuffling people around when Helo's mayor of Dogville weeks (months?) later. And obviously the Tyrols and later the Agathons are special because they had children too.

It just seems like such a distancing measure. Kara's barely got her stuff out, so they've only been on board a short time, and they're in HER rack. Which okay, was familiar and easy to possess when there's chaos. But the racks aren't built to share, and Sam's a civilian anyway, so probably shouldn't be there. It didn't strike me that odd at the time, but in retrospect it seems more deliberate. It's not just that she pulls away in that opening scene -- by her choice of where they're sleeping, she's ALREADY pushing him away.

ANd.. *snicker* did she forget?
entertaining in a disturbing way: Kara Anders Still Frakkinglyssie on June 5th, 2007 04:52 am (UTC)
Well, yeah, exactly. He has no right to push her, because he let her get caught--and while some part of him knows it wasn't rational to expect that he could always keep her safe (and she could always keep herself safe), he also knows he was sick. If he hadn't been sick...

I've checked the screencaps, and there's no way to tell. I think he IS wearing it at Joe's, but the lighting and the angles don't let us see. He's definitely wearing it the next time, post-sex.

3. It is a distance, a measure of how little she valued their marriage at that point. *wince*

Nah. I think she's just astounded that they keep getting married, elsewhere.
lizardbeth: Anders Thudlizardbeth_j on June 5th, 2007 05:35 am (UTC)
Let her get caught, plus didn't rescue her before Bad Things Happened. all the above. ouch.

And if he hadn't been sick... hm. that's an intriguing AU to ponder.

Maybe the image will be better on DVD and we'll know for sure.


weissmanweissman on June 5th, 2007 01:27 am (UTC)
I think the guilt associated with the members of the circle was never fully adddressed in and after collaborators, so that could be a source of Sam's angst. Look how close they came to murdering an innocent man. That has git to weigh on him, along with any innocent people he killed on CapII

Bob
lizardbeth: Anders - shirtlizardbeth_j on June 5th, 2007 05:00 am (UTC)
yes, exactly. But then I think, well, maybe not. I'm sure Sam did his share of saying "Anybody who died WASN'T innocent and deserved everything they got, and besides we had no choice." Certainly at the time, in the middle of the war, I don't think he was all that bothered about it. But later, in the night when he's trying to sleep, I can see some of those faces coming back.

weissmanweissman on June 5th, 2007 10:55 am (UTC)
I think you hit a nail on the head, so to speak. Especailly the collateral damage. The unintended target.

Bob
The Proverbial Bull in a China Shop...: Sam Anderssabaceanbabe on June 5th, 2007 02:36 pm (UTC)
Sam Anders ain't NOBODY's doormat! Between guilt at not keeping her safe (even though he totally knows that Kara would kick his ass for thinking that way), guilt at not rescuing her or even being able to find her, and the knowledge that she is damaged and needs space and time to heal, yeah, he gave her what he thought she needed. The man loves her as well as being in love with her.

And that also must contribute to more guilt over her getting involved with the Circle. It's bad enough that he was involved with it himself, but to have Kara take his place? Definitely not a happy-making thing for Sam.

As for the quarters question, I would imagine that it was a case of Kara turning down an offer of private quarters, going into full-blown panic mode (Starbuck style). If she doesn't have married quarters, then it isn't real and she doesn't have to deal. That's not to say that she doesn't love Sam, just that she's skittish as hell.

But that's just me -- your mileage may vary. :D