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22 March 2009 @ 05:45 pm
BSG Daybreak 2  
I'm sad it's over. Except for The Plan, I suppose, but that's a ways off anyway.

'ware lengthiness.



I kind of think of it in two pieces: Daybreak 1 and the first hour of Daybreak 2 (the first two hours, in other words), are the season finale. The final hour was the series finale, for me. And they both did what they needed to do, IMO. The first part rescued Hera, and the second part was the epilogue to tell us what happened after.

It was a bit tidy, but you know what? I'd rather that, than say.... "JUMP to mysterious coordinates. Cut to black." (and with Ron's reputed admiration for the Sopranos ending, you can't tell me it didn't cross his mind).

Did I get everything I wanted? No. Did it happen how I would've done it? No. But on balance, I think most of the characters got an ending that was appropriate. Helo surviving bought a lot of my good will, I will admit, since I thought he was dead. And Roslin and Adama had to die; that was a given. Adama sitting alone at her cairn was gorgeous, and fitting. He was done, and both Kara and Lee recognized that (well, Kara certainly did, but Lee did too, I think) and let him go. I'm sad for Lee, but you can't tell me he's going to be alone for long (Sekrit Ship of Lee/Ishay! y/y? well, that's what's in my head anyway, ymmv...) Agathons and Caprica/Gaius live happily ever after! *cries* And I firmly believe Sam and Kara have now shed all their human baggage and are together in the afterlife.

Things what some people found problematic, and I did not (mostly):

I burst out laughing when I saw Ron. Which at first was just wrong, but in retrospect, I like the moment. It changed BSG back into a story. I can see how some people don't like it- don't like being reminded that's it's only a story. But it is, and I don't think there's anything wrong in saying, "This has all happened before. It hasn't happened here. Yet." A lot of science fiction is, at heart, a cautionary tale, answering the question of where we might end up if things go on as they are. Which given that the show opened with robots obliterating all but 50,000 people out of several billion... I can't say that's not what I was watching. It wasn't ALL I was watching, but I don't think that's all the final scenes were trying to say either.

Let me get into the Hera as mitochondrial Eve thing. First of all, to my mind, that doesn't mean that no one else in the settlements had children (whether human, cylon, or a mix of both). All it means is that Hera's descendants eventually become us, and all those other lines either died out or interbred with hers over time (everyone in close proximity to her almost certainly joined in the line at some point). 150,000 years is a very long time and a whole lot of generations in between, it's inevitable that some lines died out (heck, I have branches on my family tree that died out, and that's only over a few hundred years).

Also, and interestingly to me -- mitochondria is passed through the mother. Therefore we know what they really found was SHARON'S. And where did Sharon's come from? We don't know -- the Five could've created it whole cloth, but it's likely based on their own. And theirs came from Kobol, and thus, in a curious way, all goes back to probably some common ancestor of both Cylons and Humans on Kobol ...

Anyway, going back, the problem of survival also explains to my satisfaction why they divided up the colonists in different places. If they'd grouped them all together, what would happen with an outbreak of Earth disease? Or a volcano they didn't realize was active and destroyed their landing site? No, to maximize the chances of the population as a whole, you spread people out on an unfamiliar planet (anyone smart stayed near Hera, though). Same with dumping technology - they were going to lose it eventually anyway, and they'd already tried the experiment of bringing the ships down on New Caprica with indifferent success. So why not just cut the cord and start learning from the natives.

Was it going to be fun? Hell no. Was life about to become nasty, brutal and short for everyone? Yes. And for a very, very long time. But they also didn't do what the Thirteenth Tribe did -- bring their technology to Earth and promptly blow themselves to hell less than two thousand years later, either. So there's that. Besides, think about what message keeping the tech while there are all these primitive natives around, and ... yeah, I'm just as glad the show didn't go there. (now whether everyone actually AGREED with it, or not, I doubt, but I can see everyone was just so frakking glad to find a planet that wasn't a nuclear wasteland they accepted the condition of settlement. Besides, you know all the mutineers went off to places far from any Cylon settlements, which means all the complainers' genetics eventually DIED. oops. that'll teach them to be closed-minded, huh?)

I am amused by the thought that it might be Hera's very special nature and connection with the force of the universe that also allowed Colonial influence to be pulled out of the ether and give us things like democracy and paperwork (Thanks for that, Colonials!).


ok, onto Kara and her Very Special Destiny, and the role of God as I see it:

Because "God" comes fraught with a lot of baggage, let's pretend we're Minbari of B5 and call this force: "the sentient universe". The universe didn't make Laura pick up that phone and call Adar's office to join his campaign, putting her in position to become the Dying Leader. She chose it. The universe isn't what made Bill leave that skeevy job interview to stay in the service long enough to see his ship turned into a museum, which saved the Galactica and the people she shepherded. The universe didn't force Sharon to change her mind and love Helo on Caprica all those years ago. They all made choices. Even Gaius Baltar, the person MOST influenced by this force in the person of Head!six, STILL made his own choices, some of them quite awful. The universe could push, could suggest a path, but not until Kara was brought back was there that much direct hand. And even Kara had to make her own choice and figure it all out - she didn't have all the answers, even for herself. The hybrids could connect to this force, read it on some level but they found words inadequate to talk about it -- and we've known that since Season 3. So while the resolution isn't the way I would've put the pieces together, I don't find it illegitimate either.

I figured Kara was some sort of supernatural/mystical entity. I read a lot of theories, and none of them explained everything (and some were extremely convoluted while not explaining everything). So yes, deus ex machina. But not unearned, I think, since we've had hints since at least Flesh and Bone, right? And I cannot tell a lie -- I was GLAD when Kara disappeared when her task was done. I didn't want her to stay there, and pretend to be mortal and whatever. I wanted her to leave and make Sam's words true (because otherwise I was prepared to be extremely upset that he'd just been shoved into the frakking SUN to get him out of the way). Very reminiscent of Shelly Godfrey in a way -- "we followed her around the corner and she was gone."


Things what I loved!

- BIG BATTLE! space porn! Centurions smacking Centurions! (At the moment Lee gave the signal for the Centurions to go ahead, MrLiz said, "Hey, why do I have to go first?" And I answered, "Because you're the nine-foot killing machine?" And he answered back, "You mean Expendable. This was why we rebelled in the first place!" LOL! This is why we get along. plus, he wasn't wrong.)

- Sam pwning the Colony hybrids. HA! As much as I hate the whole Hybrid!Sam thing, at least it was well used, between that and finding Hera and the attempted transfer of resurrection tech. None of that would've been possible without Sam. Still hate it. And I still think his speech was overwritten, and hearing it a second time didn't convince me otherwise. But "See you on the other side" redeemed the hybrid arc a little, although I wish Kara had heard him.


- Centurions getting their own ship to find their own destinies. They didn't come back to nuke us in the last 150,000 years, yay! So it appears they learned too. Yknow, maybe they evolved into the "angels" who could travel in space and time....

- Gaius' knowing about farming. How could such a small thing make me choke up so much? Gaius/Caprica!

- HELO BEING ALIVE! Sharon and Helo and Hera skipping through the meadow! (shut up, they were so)

- Tyrol killing Tory, and that toppling the domino that led to the Cavilry getting dead and the jump out of there, with Kara trusting herself (and I like to think Sam helping her as well with the jump since I'm sure he knew by that point where the song led and who she was and all that). I'm glad Tory's murdering Cally wasn't forgotten, and I'm glad Tyrol was that angry about it (and how hilarious was Tory, "we'll just all agree that we all did bad things, right?) I wish SHE had been the hybrid, but, oh well.

- Boomer's death was sad, but hardly unexpected. Nice that she finally did something right, before dying though. (I'm glad "my" Boomer has a happier story)

- Oh, and I have to agree with Mo Ryan: if they do a spin off with Admiral Hoshi and President Lampkin? I'd watch it. COMEDY GOLD.

And man, this is already long enough, and I've had a really long weekend, so I can't even remember any more.

So, in sum, I got enough of what I wanted. It made me feel for these characters as if they were real people, and that's the important part. I can fanwank and write fic for the rest.



I am well into a finale fic, by the way, thanks to an inopportune plot bunny that bit me last week. *sigh* because, yeah, I needed another project to work on.
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♛ part-time maenad: bsg; the greatest show on earthradon_ on March 23rd, 2009 11:48 am (UTC)
I'm just going to have say I TOTALLY AGREE to everything you've just stated here.

First of all, to my mind, that doesn't mean that no one else in the settlements had children (whether human, cylon, or a mix of both).
YES. I don't see why everyone's so nitpicky about the fact that Hera as Mitochrondrial Eve = no one else could have kids.
lizardbeth: Agathonslizardbeth_j on March 23rd, 2009 04:22 pm (UTC)
:)

and yes, I was kind of startled to see so many people, well, just completely misunderstand the concept of mitochondrial Eve. She had to have babies with SOMEONE, after all, for it to work! I kind of like the idea that she had a kid with one of the natives, actually, because then that daughter would be a second generation hybrid, but that doesn't mean their child couldn't have married Caprica's grandson, or whatever.
An Overachiever of the Wrong Persuasion: BSG - ViperZordrhi_silverflame on March 23rd, 2009 11:59 am (UTC)
Yes. Word on all of this, really. Though I will admit I kind of loved Sam's speech, because I'm a little bit of a sap that way. ;)
lizardbeth: Anders - greylizardbeth_j on March 23rd, 2009 04:31 pm (UTC)
heh. I like the IDEA of it, since I don't mind some leakage of his Cylon braininess, but Ron's hand was a bit heavy for my taste ("See? it's okay, he really likes it!") When all we'd ever seen before was Sam building pyramid courts everywhere he went - not solving math problems.

I appreciate that at least Ron THOUGHT to do it, though, that he realized Sam really got screwed over in 4.5 and tried to remedy it a bit.
An Overachiever of the Wrong Persuasion: BSG - Captain Hunkaliciousrhi_silverflame on March 23rd, 2009 04:43 pm (UTC)
Oh, yeah, that's true. It was rather heavy-handed.

But on one level it made me happy, because for as long as he's been on the show Sam has always, to my mind, been the kind of guy who cares less about winning records and mindblowing stats and more about the love of the game.

And it was kind of nice for me to have that kind of validation. *g*
lizardbeth: Anders - gunlizardbeth_j on March 23rd, 2009 04:59 pm (UTC)
yes, definitely, I agree with the love of the game part. But then, the speech was on the edge of taking that away as well - making it all too intellectual, too mental and not physical, like he was calculating his throws. Not to mention, I found it a bit hard to swallow that he'd tell a journalist he didn't care about WINNING. The following day you know the team made him appear on Caprica SportsCenter and take it back.

Is it windy or what? I thought it was supposed to stop today.
mrsdrjackson: Agathonsmrsdrjackson on March 23rd, 2009 03:33 pm (UTC)
HELO BEING ALIVE! Sharon and Helo and Hera skipping through the meadow! (shut up, they were so)
This fact is what shines for me over all others. I full expected Helo and Athena to die and Hera to go with Gaius and Caprica. But they LIVED.
(and they were so skipping!)

if they do a spin off with Admiral Hoshi and President Lampkin? I'd watch it. COMEDY GOLD.
FOR SURE. ^_^

Sam/Kara *happysigh* They are all ascended now and are finding new and interesting places to play. ;D
lizardbeth: Agathonslizardbeth_j on March 23rd, 2009 04:36 pm (UTC)
Our Agathons lived! OMG, SO HAPPY MAKING! And also, I am descended from Helo and Sharon! LOVE LOVE LOVE

wouldn't that be a brilliant sitcom? earnest adorable Hoshi, and cynical Romo trying to wrangle the fleet? bwahahaha! WE NEED WEBISODES.
mrsdrjackson: Love so completemrsdrjackson on March 23rd, 2009 06:25 pm (UTC)
:D :D :D

YES Webisodes would be FANTASTIC.
Merry Fivanolix on March 23rd, 2009 03:38 pm (UTC)
I loved your analysis of the "controversial" bits...I didn't even go there, because I thought the overall theme of the finale was more important, but it felt good to read your rationalization of those issues.

(Oh, and I understand the appeal of Lee/Ishay, but from an in-universe perspective I've been shipping Lee/Paulla since Daybreak Part 1)
lizardbeth: Anders - Leelizardbeth_j on March 23rd, 2009 04:43 pm (UTC)
haha, I think Paulla would totally eat Lee for lunch. heh. I just like Ishay now that she's proven she's not evil after all. Plus we already know they'd have beautiful kids. :) I was also shipping Lee with Sonja Six there for a bit. So he'd got plenty of choices!
M: trucco/grace iconmfirefly10 on March 23rd, 2009 09:37 pm (UTC)
I think most of the characters got an ending that was appropriate. Helo surviving bought a lot of my good will, I will admit, since I thought he was dead. I'm sad for Lee, but you can't tell me he's going to be alone for long (Sekrit Ship of Lee/Ishay! y/y? well, that's what's in my head anyway, ymmv...) Agathons and Caprica/Gaius live happily ever after! *cries* And I firmly believe Sam and Kara have now shed all their human baggage and are together in the afterlife.

Agreed. If RDM had done the original ending he planned for the Agathons, I probably would've HATED the finale. But, as it was, their happy-little-family ending allowed me to forgive some of the episodes flaws.

And that part about Sam/Kara...*Hugs* you...They are, without a doubt, living together happily on 'the other side'. And I think the Lee/Ishay thing is certainly a possibilty, though I'd be happier with Lee/Romo:)
lizardbeth: Agathonslizardbeth_j on March 24th, 2009 02:51 am (UTC)
heh, Lee/Romo. Maybe Lee can be a supporting character in the Admiral Hoshi and President Romo sitcom? hee. In any case, it appears we are all agreed that Lee's not going to be lonely!

Tragic ending would've SUCKED SO HARD for them. Besides, there was enough tragedy and death, someone had to live and offer some kind of promise and hope.
noybusiness: Leoben/Anders/Starbuck threesomenoybusiness on March 24th, 2009 02:00 am (UTC)
I have much agreement for everything you and the others have written on this thread. Including the parts that contradict each other!

What do you think of the trailer for The Plan?

Fandom news column: bsg_pornbattle is really taking off. I've left four posts. If only someone would reply to drabble tag. Two of the prompts Scifiaddict recently posted were mine.

lizardbeth: Kara-Anders  Resistancelizardbeth_j on March 24th, 2009 02:47 am (UTC)
the Plan.... I'm excited to see Sam again after being denied Sam for what feels like forever. I HOPE AND PRAY TO THE CYLON GOD that we get to watch Pyramid being played for real. I also hope Jane rewatched Resistance and the Farm, so there's not too much of a disconnect there, since I fear that we're going to get lots of inside jokes about being a Cylon and perfection and crap like that to try to tie it to the finale instead of his first appearances. But on the up side, Cavil's dialogue should be awesome!

Oh! I forgot to watch the pornbattle comm so I didn't realize it was already started! ack. Hopefully there'll be a prompt I can answer in less than a gazillion words...
noybusiness: Leoben/Anders/Starbuck threesomenoybusiness on March 24th, 2009 03:15 am (UTC)
Seeing Pyramid would be great.
What do you think of the trailer?

I mean the prompting is really taking off. It will close and the actual battle will start very soon. I have five posts now.


lizardbeth: Anders - no shirtlizardbeth_j on March 24th, 2009 03:49 am (UTC)
trailer's ok. I already knew what the movie was about, and since it's just little snippets strung together it's not particularly useful to judge anything by. I'm sure we'll get a longer trailer closer in time.
noybusiness: lolcatbsgnoybusiness on March 24th, 2009 04:48 am (UTC)
Prompting's closed now.

Oh, I hope we get a longer trailer. We already knew it featured Sam Anders, the Chief, and Cavil. The trailer also shows Simon (with a young woman), Shelly Godfrey, and Barbarella!Six.
tnhand1022 on March 24th, 2009 04:47 am (UTC)
I took the Mitochondrial Eve bit to be more symbolic and poetic than anything else, that it was truly the best of both races coming together in love that ensured their survival. I never even considered the "implication" that no one else had kids until reading your post.
noybusiness on March 24th, 2009 04:50 am (UTC)
Well, that's not the real implication. Over 150,000 years, just about everyone's lines would have crossed. By fate or chance, Hera's descendants were the most successful, such that everyone in the modern age can be traced back to her in an unbroken mother-daughter line, but that's not the only line of descent.
tnhand1022 on March 24th, 2009 04:58 am (UTC)
Yep, I'm onboard with mitochondrial lineage (working in the Division of Human Genetics and all). I was just chuckling that some bits of fandom assumed it meant 30,000+ people suddenly went sterile.

I don't participate in any boards or comms, so the little bits that trickle in to me are random and interesting. :)
noybusiness on March 24th, 2009 05:00 am (UTC)
Ah, sorry. That's funny.

Yeah, I was surprised people thought that, too. I guess they don't realize that everyone who didn't meet an untimely end by unforeseen circumstances would have interbred by then.

lizardbeth: Kara-Anders S4lizardbeth_j on March 24th, 2009 07:40 am (UTC)
yes, I've seen it in various places that Hera's the only survivor and how that's terrible or whatever. which misses both the science AND the symbolism in one fell swoop.

But then I also saw a serious suggestion that the show should've ended with the jump to Kara's coordinates. It clearly takes all kinds in fandom...
tnhand1022 on March 31st, 2009 03:30 am (UTC)
*is terribly late to the party*

...the show should've ended with the jump to Kara's coordinates.

Oh boy. There would have been riots! I know each fan takes something different away from BSG and wants different questions answered, but screwing us all to make it fair? No dice!!!
ellestra: bsgellestra on March 24th, 2009 07:00 pm (UTC)
First of all, to my mind, that doesn't mean that no one else in the settlements had children (whether human, cylon, or a mix of both). All it means is that Hera's descendants eventually become us, and all those other lines either died out or interbred with hers over time (everyone in close proximity to her almost certainly joined in the line at some point).
THIS
After show being so many times wrong about science it's funny when it gets it better then the fans. It was so with many people not understanding about nukes, speed of light and New Caprica. It is so with Mitochondrial Eve. It's not that anyone else didn't have children or that they've all died out. It just means that all other mitochondrial lines ended with only sons. But their other genes are still out there. Because nuclear genes you get from both parents but mitochondria and their genomes come only from the mother(Sorry, I am a geneticist and work on mitochondria).

And I loved all the same moments you loved :D